“The worst thing that can happen to a manager is dreading phone calls from a client,” says Shelter Music Group founder/chairman Carl Stubner from Sun Valley, Idaho. A self-described “ex-ski bum hippie who just got lucky to fall into the business” — a 40-plus year career in artist management — Stubner attributes his longevity to bonding closely, and in many cases becoming close friends with, his clients, who include ZZ Top, Crowded House and Fleetwood Mac, a band he’s managed for 36 years. (He is currently working on Mick Fleetwood’s solo album, which will feature a starry lineup of vocalists and the drummer’s singing debut.)

Stubner says that when then-BMG CEO Hartwig Masuch approached him in 2019 about investing in an artist management venture, “I told him the only way I’ll do something is if I can start a company where I have fun. This is the corniest expression, but I told Hartwig, I dream of building a company like Rolling Stone magazine in the ‘70s, where there are a bunch of like-minded music freaks in a room, and we’re not one of the other big management companies where it’s so competitive.”

In December of that year, BMG announced a partnership with Shelter — but shortly after Stubner committed to an expensive suite of offices and hired staff, the pandemic hit.  “I told Hartwig, ‘I am not furloughing one goddamn person. In fact, I’m going to hire more people and I’m going to make sure they’re taken care of. That builds loyalty and love.’”

“COVID made us a family, and everyone got paid,” Stubner says. “You treat your clients the same way as you treat your managers, and it can work. And it’s finally paying off. We’re cash positive and it’s going great.”

Stubner says his mentors include the legendary late artist manager, Sandy Gallin, whose clients included Dolly Parton, Cher and Michael Jackson. Stubner began in the mailroom of Gallin’s firm and later co-managed bands with the late Howard Kaufman and Irving Azoff, who co-founded Front Line Management and guided the careers of the Eagles and Steely Dan, among other acts (Azoff continues to manage those bands). Working with those men helped foster Stubner’s ideology of gut instinct, nurturing and entrepreneurialism, both for his artists and Shelter’s managers.

Shelter’s roster of 76 acts is composed of a mix of veteran artists and touring stalwarts such as ZZ Top, Godsmack, Crowded House, Better Than Ezra and the Buddy Holly estate, along with up-and-coming artists such as Des Rocs, Hunter Metts and Culture Wars. And in May, it announced the addition of five acts: Cheap Trick, Boys Like Girls, Chiodos, American Hi-Fi and Dead Poet Society.

Like his mentors, Stubner is press-shy, preferring to let Shelter’s artists and managers take the spotlight. In fact, he claims this interview — in which he discussed the importance of developing managers as well as artists, the importance of getting in his clients’ headspace and what is surely one of the priciest VIP experiences ever — is his first.

What do managers represent in the artist ecosystem?

In my mind — and anyone can debate me — the manager is the most important person in the artist’s life. It’s the only person that’s involved 360 with an artist’s career. Managers have more and more power because they’re so close to the talent, but our role and our responsibilities are a hundred times greater than when I was in the mailroom at Sandy Gallin’s company. Now, we have head asset people, radio people, etc., but we have no ownership. And while our costs go up, commissions remain the same. But our profit margins aren’t shrinking.

Why not?

We’re finding different waterfalls of money and not relying on the traditional. There are strategic partnerships with artists and other things that can generate revenue. We’ve gotten really creative in merchandise and VIP. We have a crazy tour out right now that is A Perfect Circle, Puscifer and Primus, but they’re all on the stage at the same time. They’re all playing and interacting with each other. The merch average is 45 bucks a head for the whole tour — 60 bucks when you count VIP. It’s so creative and Maynard [James Keenan] is an amazing guy. It was his concept along with [Shelter president] Dino Paredes. We had it out last year, and it broke the records in arenas and sheds for merch and VIP. With certain bands you can really expand VIP by doing crazy experience shit.

Can you give me an example?

Fleetwood Mac. The only person who does meet-and-greets for the band is Mick Fleetwood because he’s a great showman. So, in 2013, I added this VIP experience, where I got a private plane and 10 fans flew with Mick to three shows. They stayed in the same hotel as the band, on the same floor as Mick. He ate dinner with them and hung out with them. They spent mid-six figures a head to be on that plane. And you know what? Every one of those people that bought those tickets are still my friends and Mick’s friends. We’re in constant contact because they had this experience that blew their minds. Mick gives 200 percent of anything he ever does. We only did that once, but we have an extremely successful VIP experience at virtually every Fleetwood Mac concert.

As you pointed out earlier, managers are doing more than ever for their acts, but commissions haven’t changed. Are you turning to equity deals as some other managers are?

We have looked at variations of that, whether it’s in the same vein as Live Nation doing a touring deal where they guarantee 400 shows or whatever, and here’s an advance. We might go in and say, “Hey guys, I’m giving you $10 million, and I’m an equity partner for the rest of your life unless I sell my share or you sell yours.” Or I do deals now where I’m an equity partner in businesses other than touring and records. I’m equity in a restaurant. I’m equity in a wine company. I also do television and film deals that I produce.  A lot of celebrity branding is oversaturated, but if you find the right thing, it still can make sense.

What’s your leadership strategy?

There will be no great bands if there are no great managers. So, we need to build young managers — really incubate them. It’s a terrible term, and the kids don’t like me using it. But that’s the most fun part of my job. The goal is to build an infrastructure to make them better managers by having expert support around them. The days of assistants are gone. The days of radio guy, social media asset guy, etc., is now. They feed the information to the managers to communicate to the band. Most managers can’t be great at everything, but we’re a 360 business. So, you better delegate.

You said that if a manager does their job, they can become part of an artist’s family, which seems antithetical to the recent churn we’re seeing in the artist management world.  

A lot has changed obviously, but back in the day, the manager/artist dynamic was a relationship business, and that’s what I learned. Maybe that’s why I naturally gravitate towards finding like-minded managers who have the personality to be in someone’s life like that. It’s not easy because it has to do as much with the artist as it does the manager. When I talk to a potential new client, I tell them, “I get that you’re not looking for a new best friend. But I will become your best friend, and you will accept it and understand it. If that doesn’t happen, then I’m the wrong manager for you.” How can you make or influence major decisions for an artist if you really don’t know who they are, how they bleed, what they’re comfortable with? Take Hunter Metts. My son Jackson and my nephew Jamie Robinson work for me. They found and nurtured this guy, and he is on fire. These kids are in his life. They’re at his wedding. They’re there buying a house with him.

That’s the fun part of management, and I’m not going to lose that. If it is no longer fun, then I’m done.

There’s debate in your field that because of social media and sites like ROSTR, artists are constantly comparing their careers against others in terms of deals done, etc. Are you dealing with that?

I’ve seen that with one of the younger artists, and we’re not in business anymore because it’s like, “Hey, let’s worry about you. My dream for you is not tomorrow. My dream for you is 10 years, 20 years — a legacy that will provide for your family forever.” We get new clients all the time. Not so much the ones that are totally dictated by TikTok, but we are finding different ways to succeed besides focusing on social media.

What’s an example?

Des Rocs is a big fan of Ultimate Fighting, and UFC CEO Dana White is a monster fan of Des and Dino, who manages him. So, Des is the soundtrack of that world, which is propelling way big audiences. I learned that from Sandy Gallin. He had Dolly Parton, and he’d say, “We’ve got to get rid of the peaks and valleys.” You know, record release and tour peak, then valley.  He’d say, “Let’s do Dollywood. Let’s do Sandollar Productions [the film and TV production company founded by Gallin and Parton].” Or Tommy Lee. I did Rock Star: Supernova with Mark Burnett. I produced Tommy Lee Goes to College because he was at a point of his career where he needed something else, because Motley Crue wasn’t back together yet.

What about the Pam & Tommy miniseries?

I said, “Tommy, you get so pissed when people ask you about Pamela and what happened. Write the f–king book and then make them read the book.” So, he writes the book, and it becomes a New York Times bestseller. Then I got the television deal, which humanized him. Then Motley got back together. It’s all those little pieces. If you focus on a record, you’re going to lose. You need a record, but you can’t focus on how many streams you got this week, or a K-Rock add or whatever. It might take a little longer, but once again, I’m managing you for your whole career. And to cement a great career, maybe it’s better to look this way rather than instant success. Because that’s the mentality of a record company. They’re putting it out there, and if it doesn’t bite, they’re backing off.

How do you foster a unified, collaborative work culture?

It will be hard for me to be specific because a lot of it is personality. It’s more about the type of person that I bring into the company. And I spend time with them. I say I don’t want to be another one of the other big management companies, where it’s so competitive that the managers become these silos of different businesses under one name. I don’t want to be the guy who walks into a meeting to help you close an artist and never shows up again. You’re on your own. Go get what you can get, and I’ll be there to help you, not the band. So, when you need something, I’ll do it for you, and you bring it back for them. I don’t want your thunder. Other than the bands I personally manage, I want to manage managers — and make them better. So, I’ve got a group of men and women with the same mindset, and a lot of them are doing better than they’ve ever done.

So, you’re guiding them, not bigfooting them?

I’m more of an entrepreneurial type who comes up with ideas for their bands, and they deal with it and deliver it. Like [your act] should do a wine company. I know the wine company. I’ve got funding. Or he should write a movie. He should do a soundtrack. I can line that up, and they’re happy. At least I think they’re happy. This is really the first interview I’ve ever done in my life, and I’ve been doing this for 40 years. I prefer to let others shine. If you look at the TikTok phenomenon with “Dreams” with Fleetwood Mac, Brian Frank at my company drove that whole thing.

Can you share a strategy you employed with one of the bands you manage directly?

Look at ZZ Top. With all due respect to ZZ, 16 or 17 years ago when I signed them, they were playing fairs — not festivals, fairs — and they were making considerably less money. I got Rick Rubin involved [to co-produce 2012’s La Futura with Billy Gibbons]. Then I got the right photographers involved. I put them on television. And we’ve doubled their guarantees per night over this period each year. They’re in Australia right now, and it just keeps growing bigger. You’ve got to keep your bands relevant. The rest will come.

Shelter’s client roster includes a lot of bands that had big moments of popularity a few decades ago, such as ZZ Top and Crowded House. Do you look for acts that are undervalued?

There’s me and then there’s Shelter. How I manage might be different than how some of the Shelter managers might operate. But I’ve always loved resurrecting great bands. Look, I’ve got my blue chips, but Shelter is also about building new art by building managers and trusting them to find and support the young talent that I don’t know that much about. My philosophy remains the same, though: When commerce supersedes the art, art loses.

Are there any of your younger acts or new signees that you’re really excited about this year?

Yeah, I think Badflower is going to blow up, and Hunter Metts, who I mentioned before. We recently signed him to Sony Music Publishing and Interscope. Jamie and Jackson manage him. The first show they brought me to was at my office in Nashville. I go to see this guy, and wow, he’s an interesting, good-looking guy, and he sings amazing. He needs some help with the writing voice, but you can tell he’s a great artist. When we signed Hunter in 2023, he had 30,000 monthly listeners. Jamie and Jackson started working with him and introducing him to writers. In December 2024, his single “Weathervane” blew up and brought him to 2.5 million monthly listeners, and he didn’t have a record deal. Jamie and Jackson are f–king killing it. And what they did was build a business similar to the way I did with some blue chips, and then all these development acts. They’re out there managing bands like Lit, Hinder and Fuel. All those bands tour. So, they have constant cash flow plus Hunter and Culture Wars, which is doing pretty good. Their plate is full, and then I put Lindsey Buckingham’s kid into that incubator team.

A lot of managers won’t sign anyone until the metrics make sense. What’s your take on metrics versus gut?

It’s more gut. Take Hunter again. There was zero on him. Nothing. Sterling — zilch. It was knowing what we can do with their raw art to create something accessible to an audience. And it’s always got to be honest.

Before you formed Shelter, you were the CEO of Sanctuary Music Group?

I ran Sanctuary when Merck [Mercuriadis] left Sanctuary. My job was to get Sanctuary in a place where it was a viable company to sell because it was a U.K. publicly traded company. Beforehand, I was president of North America, and I saw how that company ran. It wasn’t a company that I would run necessarily.

Were you surprised by his trajectory at Hipgnosis Songs Fund, given what happened at Sanctuary?

Merck’s an interesting character for sure. He’s very smart, has always had a great passion for music, and he’s a cat. He’ll always land on his feet, and he seems to get out of situations pretty damn good. I didn’t really stay in contact with him. I saw Merck at the Steven Tyler [Janie’s Fund] function during the Grammys [this year], and that was the first time I had seen him in 10 years. I’ve sold maybe five or six catalogs, but I never did a deal with Hipgnosis — just because it wasn’t where I wanted to be. Listen, he’s a hell of a salesman, but he’s not necessarily an operator. We all have a bit of salesman in us, and when you’re a salesman, you start embellishing in order to sell and grow, and sometimes it becomes bigger than what you are actually selling. I can do the same thing when I get going.